In Season 3 of Dark Winds, Lt. Joe Leaphorn (Zahn McClarnon) and Sergeant Jim Chee (Kiowa Gordon) lead the Navajo Tribal Police force, while they’re former colleague and friend Bernadette Manuelito (Jessica Matten) has joined Border Patrol over 500 miles away. Things at home between Joe and his wife Emma (Deanna Allison) were strained almost immediately this season, and by season’s end their future is unclear. We sat down with McClarnon and Allison to discuss the entirety of Season 3, from Emma’s frustrations with her husband and Joe’s psychedelic journey in Episode 6 to what the beloved couple’s future holds.     

Q: The opening minutes of Season 3 left me speechless and I’m sure a lot of fans were left the same way. Opening with David Bowie’s “Space Oddity” we know right away that something isn’t right. Once you come to, there’s pure fear on your face. The tension that’s built up in that scene was almost too much to take! Were you excited to read in the script that this season audiences would be introduced to the Ye’iitsoh in such a visceral way? 

Zahn McClarnon: You know, authenticity is so important to us especially with regards to Navajo mysticism and culture. We try to portray it accurately and honor Navajo culture, so bringing in things like the Ye'iitsoh was difficult to do because we had to figure out how to do it in an honorable way. The monster Ye'iitsoh represents a negative energy, and I think it's a great surprise for the audience at first. They don't know what it is and as we move through the season, well, we figure out what it really is.  

Q: It’s clear that Joe’s role in BJ Vines’ death is haunting him, and Emma just knows that something isn’t right with him. She's so in tune with him and the energy of her home that when something is off it’s clear to her. Now with Joe, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Emma has been more in tune with her feelings around her son’s passing, whereas Joe still seems to be sitting in his fully intact grief. Can you talk a little bit about Emma’s journey this season and how she’s dealing with Leaphorn in this shutoff state?

Deanna Allison: Well, you’re so right. She really sees that Leaphorn is in a shutoff state. For Emma, her culture and traditions really got her through her pain, suffering, and turmoil. That’s one of the reasons why as a Navajo woman she practices so hard for these moments of darkness. The Navajo coming of age ceremony teaches you that through these trying times, this is how you can prevail.

Joe has lost his son, and no one can tell you how to grieve a child so of course Emma has empathy. But Joe is sitting in his grief like you said and as much as she wants to stay there with him, she can't because in Navajo traditions, you process, you move on, and you have to let that spirit go. You have to let him be a part of that spirit world, and that's something that Leaphorn is deeply struggling with. So as much as we have all these traditions and ceremonies to show us the way, sometimes the human in us just wants to stick on to those dark emotions. I think Emma sees that that’s where Joe is at. She's leaving it up to him to find himself as a man, as a protector, as that person that she respects and loves so much.

I feel like this season she does a lot of watching. There's nothing she can do to really change what he’s going through so she’s just trying to be there. Keeping their life in order, progressing the best that she can in her world as a Navajo woman. That’s where I take her this season. She has a wise perspective, and she sees her husband struggling and just hoping that she can just be that support and help him… until she’s had enough. Until she truly needs to protect her energy.

Q: Something else that comes up a lot this season is the idea that there’s a line that separates monsters from men and Joe has crossed it. At his core, he believes he did and that’s what he’s struggling with, and obviously Emma believes that he crossed it as well. As she said, what he did was selfish because he brought Vines’ spirit into their home. She’s a protector just like he is. Is part of why Emma is so upset because her agency in the whole situation was removed?  

DA: I would say so! Their relationship had been based on communication and letting each other in, so when she gets completely shut out, it’s like “who is this person? This isn't the man I married.” Emma had so much trust in him that he would culturally and spiritually know where he stands, that he would be grounded, but then all of a sudden, he's no longer there. She’s so used to this communication and his energy just always being there… but now it's been sucked away. 

Q: A lot of this season is about Joe’s internal battle – facing his demons and not turning away. At the beginning of Episode 5, Leaphorn is in the bathroom covered in Halsey’s blood looking in the mirror and we get a very Lynchian Twin Peaks Bob moment as we see these spliced moments of Joe’s screaming profile! This season is particularly unnerving to watch at times, but I can only imagine that some of the scarier scenes to watch for us are some of the most fun for you to film!

ZM: Oh yeah, and that particular scene was improv! I just said to Billy [Luther], our amazing director for that episode, let me try something. I did that scream and we watched it on the monitor, and they really liked it, so it made the cut. To me, it represented the terror and the trauma that Leaphorn was going through from his past life and what a better way to express it than in this extreme facial way. I asked specifically if we could cut to that back and forth. We have a very collaborative team, and they did it. It's wonderful to work with people that are that collaborative.

Q: This season offered some incredible opportunities to explore things we haven’t seen before. Whether it’s seeing Bern rolling solo and doing her thing hundreds of miles away or having incredible guest stars like George [R. R. Martin] and Robert [Redford] in Episode 1, we also get the epic puzzle that is Episode 6 – Leaphorn's ketamine journey featuring Robert Knepper as a terrifying priest. What was it like filming that episode?   

ZM: Max Hurwitz wrote that episode, and when I read it, I was like “Oh, I like the path that the writers are taking here to go back into Joe's psyche and the trauma from his past!” To really see what makes Joe tick and to do it in a surreal way, which Erica Tremblay our director for Episode 6, captured really well. Getting to show the audience Joe's traumatic past and the choices that he made coming out of that. 

This whole season is really about Joe, his past, and the choices he made in Season 2 and how those choices have affected him in Season 3. How they've affected his relationship with Emma and all the people around him. Joe is in a moral gray area for so much of this season and that’s caused a lot of anxiety and fear for him. So, Episode 6 was a great episode to shoot because it's so different than the rest of the season. I really like doing this kind of stuff, and I would love to explore more of that side of Joe. I hope we do in Season 4.

Q: One thing that I find so wholesome about the show and particularly in this season, is Leaphorn’s friendship with Gordo. Leaphorn really shares a lot of vulnerability with Gordo this season, just like Gordo has done with Leaphorn in the past and it really seems like these two veterans lean on each other. What has it been like working with A Martinez over the past couple of seasons now?

ZM: Well, A and I worked on Longmire together for six seasons, but I don’t think we ever had a single scene together! We’re friends. A and I hung out quite a bit during our Longmire days, and we've hung out in Los Angeles a few times. He’s just one of those guys that I can really relate to, and I just feel very comfortable around. He's such an open human being and such a kind person that has a great positive attitude all the time. So, it's easy for me to do those kinds of scenes with A, and he's such a pro. The guy has been around! I mean, he was in a John Wayne film! He's like my older brother. He really is. But yeah, not too much older though. [Laughs]

Q: The difference between how Season 2 ended with Joe and Emma riding the motorcycle into the sunset vs how their relationship stands at the end of Season 3 is so jarring. When Joe's listening to the recording from Agent Washington he finally hears Emma’s words and seems to be really taking in what she’s saying... is there hope for them yet?   

ZM: I think there's hope. I mean, I think in Joe's mind there's hope. Joe is madly in love with his wife, and I think that’s clear in Season 3—just how much Emma means to him. We'll see what happens in Season 4.

DA: Well, of course, Emma has to believe in that hope, but at the same time, in order for someone to find themselves, you kind of have to let them process and be in isolation. I think she pretty much knows that. She knows that as someone who works in a profession that deals with people and their illnesses, but she also knows that from a traditional point of view too. There's only so much that the medicine man will teach you and heal you, because there’s a point where you have to go and practice on your own. There’s always hope in Navajo perspective, they want you to continue to always find the good intentions in people and in yourself and just to keep moving forward no matter what that looks like.

ZM: Yeah, I don't think Joe's fully wrapped his head around what exactly he's done to the relationship. I think there’s that 1970s Cowboy Indian still in him where he’s like “it's not all my fault,” and he still can't figure out why Emma left him.  

DA: Their relationship is imperfect, but she still stands by him. At the same time, she's got a life too, and she’s an active working woman who's wrestling with this duality of working and the homestead. Navajo women at this time were encouraged to go to vocational school and become secretaries. So, for Emma to be a nurse is really going against the grain. I think she’s just trying to really move forward and not just sit in a dirty diaper. You're going to have to eventually get some fresh air, just like medicine man says.

ZM: You calling Joe a dirty diaper? Holy cow. [Feigns shock] 

DA: Sorry! [Both erupt in laughter]

Watch all of Dark Winds Season 3 now. Episodes are available to stream on amc.com (with a cable provider login), and the AMC apps for mobile and devices. You can also watch episodes via AMC+ at amcplus.com or through the new AMC+ app available on iPhone, iPad, Android, Fire TV, Apple TV, and Roku plus Samsung and Vizio smart TVs. AMC+ can also be streamed through a variety of providers, including AppleTV, Prime Video Channels, DirectTV, Dish, Roku Channel, Sling, and Xfinity. Sign up for AMC+ now.